Shoulder Dot Placement in the Kibbe Personal Line Sketch

Let's talk about something that comes up constantly, quietly causes a lot of confusion, and genuinely affects how accurate your sketch reads: where do the shoulder dots go?

This is one of those topics where the answer is actually pretty clear, once you look at it from the right angle. I think the noise around it has made it feel murkier than it is. So here's what I see, what I make of it, and where I've landed.

What's Currently Happening

In some online Kibbe groups, there's a system floating around that assigns numbered positions to the shoulder dot. You'll see comments like "I think she's between 1 and 2" or "I'd place that dot further left."

And I'm not criticizing that at all. It comes from a genuine attempt to resolve something that does look visually ambiguous in the published sketches. But what I'm seeing is that as a community, we're still producing some inconsistent shoulder reads, splitting us, and creating uncertainty where I don't think there needs to be. So I want to talk about it.

Where the Dot Goes and Why

Here's my interpretation, built from three places that all point to the same answer: garment logic, anatomy, and Kibbe's own words and motions.

Let's start with the garment.

The personal line sketch exists to find where you need accommodation in clothing. That's the whole point of it. So the most honest framework for the shoulder dot is a garment concept: the dot marks where the armscye lands.

The armscye is the armhole of a garment (the seam that runs from the front underarm, up over the shoulder, and back down to the rear underarm). It's where the sleeve attaches. And a seamstress places that seam at the shoulder joint — specifically at or around the acromion, which is the bony point at the outer top of your shoulder, almost where your clavicle meets your scapula. That's the pivot point of the arm. That's where the seam goes.

A seamstress does not move that seam for flesh, for muscle, or for padding. She accommodates those things by changing the architecture around the seam (the depth of the armhole, the height of the sleeve cap, the amount of ease built into the upper arm, the neckline). The pivot point itself stays fixed.

Now the anatomy.

The acromion is constant. It's a bony landmark in every body. It sits at the outer edge of the shoulder (not at the arm, not on the arm, not past the arm, not at the collarbone). Right at the joint where shoulder ends and arm begins. Swing your arm in front of a mirror and watch where the movement originates. That's it. That's where the dot goes.

Now Kibbe.

In video, David says: "You start right at the edge of the shoulders because that's part of your body so you've got to accommodate that — that's where my eye starts."

And when the interviewer pushes back about the narrow sketch appearing not to reach the edge, Kibbe calls it an optical illusion, and explains that if he drew it as far out as he does on the width sketch, everyone would think they have width. He's describing a drawing compromise (not a different dot placement). He then points to each sketch and confirms they all start from the same place.

I also want to note: when David describes the shoulder in these interviews, he makes a motion toward his jacket hem, and David's jackets fit him like a glove. That motion, I believe, is tracing the armscye seam. The seamstress line. Not the flesh of the arm, not a point mid-shoulder.

When you put all three together (garment logic, anatomy, and his words and gestures) to me, they all land in the same place. The outer edge of the shoulder joint. The acromion. Every time.

What Does NOT Change

The dot position does not change by type. The pivot point of the arm is anatomically fixed. Narrow, wide, curved, balance and petite, the dot starts in the same place on every body.

This is actually important to understand, because it's the whole reason the sketch works as a comparative tool. If the dot moved by type, you couldn't use it to read type. The dot is the fixed reference point. Everything else is built around it.

What DOES Change by Type

What changes is the architecture around that fixed point — and this is where the sketch starts to show you something real about accommodation.

The colourful illustration here, and an incredible resource for understanding a garments armholes, comes from Sarah Veblen over on Threads Magazine.

When we sync arm holes and sleeves with Kibbe we get something like this:

You can see that the important piece here is what the red line does FROM the dot, how it comes OUT of the dot. What happens AFTER the dot.

• Dramatic / Dramatic Classic (Yang) — Higher, tighter armscye. Narrower sleeve cap. Less ease. Longer shoulder line. The sleeve continues the vertical line rather than creating roundness. Sleeves read sleek and architectural.

• Soft Dramatic / Romantic family (Curve) — More sleeve cap ease. Slightly wider armscye. More room through the upper arm. Flesh and curve need space to move. Sleeves read lush, rounded, draped rather than sharp.

• Flamboyant Natural / Soft Natural (Width) — Wider armscye opening. Shallower armhole. Lower sleeve cap. Broad shoulders and lateral width need room. Nothing restrictive. Sleeves read relaxed, unconstructed.

• Flamboyant Gamine / Soft Gamine (Petite) — Shorter armscye depth. Compact sleeve cap. Tighter overall fit. Shorter bone structure. Sleeves read snappy and proportionate.
  

To my understanding. The dot is the hinge. The armscye is the door frame. The sleeve is the door. Every type needs a different frame, and a different door, but the hinge is always in the same place.

The Edge Cases: Prominent Shoulders and Flesh Past the Bone

This is the one that comes up most often as a challenge, so let's address it directly.

On some bodies, particularly those with added flesh or prominent "shoulders" (this is in quotations because I think this is the optical illusion that David mentioned. Sometimes Dramatics have a prominent, sharp, humerus- the arm bone, that extends beyond the acromion). In both cases there is visible points that appear to extend past the shoulder joint. The question becomes: does the dot move out to accommodate that?

My interpretation: no. And here's why, to me, that actually makes sense within the system.

A seamstress accommodates flesh through the sleeve and neckline, not by relocating the seam.

Moving the seam outward to chase the flesh would create a garment that pulls, twists, and doesn't hang correctly, because you've moved the pivot point away from where the arm actually rotates.

What you do instead is adjust the ease, widen the cap, drop the armhole. The seam stays at the joint. The sleeve accommodation does the work.

In the sketch, the same logic applies. What we're mapping is structure, not flesh or arm. And for types where prominent "shoulders" is a part of the picture, that shows up in the shape of the lines drawn from the dot, not in the dot's position.

How to Find It on Your Own Body

Stand in front of a mirror. Swing your arm forward and back. Watch where the movement originates. That rotation point, that pivot, that's your acromion. That's where your dot goes.

You can also press gently along the top of your shoulder moving outward from your neck. You'll feel the flat ridge of the clavicle, then a slight bony prominence at the outer edge before the soft tissue of the arm begins. That prominence is the acromion. Right there.

A Note on the 3D Model Output

3D Modelling is incredible at finding this point on a body, because just like garments and the human eye, it needs an anchor point to start.

I usually tell people to consider the sketch output from the premium analysis as a display, and leave it at that. And I do mean that, the typing and try-ons are the main event. But the lines on the output sketch do actually contain some clues, and since we're already talking about shoulders, I think this one is fun to look for, so I'll share it.

Line faintness is system confidence in finding shoulder. A strong line means it found something clearly. A faint line means it's less certain (you'll see this light line more on selfies, phone angles, hair covering, sweaters, anything that obscures the shoulder).

You can also often see where flesh separates from the shoulder, how the line curves or sharpens.

A double line at the shoulder? That's the tool picking up muscle or potential flesh with dimension. It's not a problem. It's actually the model doing what a seamstress does with her hands. feeling that there's something there worth noting.

The shoulder line can act as a clue. It doesn't move the dot. But it's interesting.

A Final Note

Everything in this post is my interpretation (of David's words, his gestures, his sketches, and the anatomy and garment logic that supports it).

I think when I take the notes, it all points to the same place. So I am sharing my read clearly, so that when we discuss the Personal Line Sketch, you know where I am coming from, and we can share some common ground.

As always, the sketch is a tool, not a verdict. Use it to see yourself more clearly.